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Scott:
I will be seeing Bruce sometime in the next month or two, and will see if I can raise this topic.
Actually, I don't know the story of how the original Zopilote sank. I did bring it up with Bruce one evening in Bermuda, but it was obviously a sore subject. My recollection is that it was a combination of low tide, an uncharted reef, and strong swell. I believe Bruce said that the actual sinking was as a result of a strap breaking while the boat was being placed onto a barge. I've heard a couple of different stories as to "where" it sunk. One in Alaska, and one much farther south.
Zopilote has been refloated and made "better than new".
Interestingly, his "Spirit of Zopilote" is a much smaller boat. - 64'. My guess is that Bruce made the same decision as Roberta and I: keep the boat to a manageable, and maintainable size. A steel boat requires more maintenance than I wanted to tangle with (or, so I was told).
If it feels appropriate to the conversation I'll ask him his thoughts on steel vs fiberglass.
You'll note that we are installing sonar on Sans Souci II. My plan is to have the Sonar down whenever there is any potential risk.
-Ken W
PS http://www.panbo.com/yae/archives/001329.html
| Williams, Ken |
2007-04-09 10:09:23
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Ken,
In considering the steel vs. fiberglass debate, I have always wondered about what Bruce Kessler has to say about the issue. I have not been able to find very much information on the sinking of Bruce's Delta "Zopilote" in Alaska. I have also never been able to find out about Bruce's decision to replace "Zopilote" with another fiberglass boat from Northern Marine, "The Spirit of Zopilote". His experience seems to be the perfect case to own a steel hull, but he still chose another fiberglass hull. I think Bruce's thoughts would be fascinating on this issue, as he has had the experience we all fear with a fiberglass hull. With your experience with Bruce on the NAR did you ever have any conversations with him on steel vs. fiberglass?
Scott Jacobson | Jacobson, Scott |
2007-04-09 01:33:00
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I just re-read my response to your question about steel vs fiberglass. It is perhaps stronger on the pro-steel side than I intended.
To be clear: My first call when we wanted a new boat was to Nordhavn, for a fiberglass boat.
At the time, we were extremely prejudiced against steel. After deciding that Nordhavn didn't offer 'exactly' what we were looking for, we looked at other fiberglass boat manufacturers (primarily Northern Marine). When things weren't working with Northern Marine, we reluctantly decided to look at steel boats (primarily Real Ships). After some serious study, we started liking the idea of steel, and were going to build a custom steel boat. A side-story of this is that we had hired a consultant to help us evaluate different options. He was 100% dead set against our considering a steel boat. We had to drag him kicking and screaming to any meeting with a steel boat manufacturer, and this issue ultimately caused him to refuse to work with us. We did respect his opinion, and he felt we were making a major mistake. He didn't think we had any idea how much of a maintenance nightmare a steel boat could be.
When Nordhavn offered the possibility of making the 68, we jumped on the opportunity immediately.
However, it is safe to say, that we did personally overcome 99% of our concerns about steel hulled boats, and whereas at the beginning I never would have considered owning one, after all of our research, and in spite of the advice of our consultant -- I believe them to be a viable alternative -- for the right owner.
-Ken W
| Williams, Ken |
2007-03-22 03:16:14
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Roberta and I spent a lot of time on the issue of 'fiberglass vs steel' and ultimately decided to order a steel hulled boat, but then switched literally at the last minute back to a Nordhavn.
Here's what we liked about a steel hull:
- Steel is substantially tougher than fiberglass. If you do hit something, you have a better chance of not losing the whole boat.
- Steel hulls tend to have molded-in (integral) fuel tanks. This means that if you rip a hole in the hull, there is some chance that fuel leaks out, but water doesn't leak in
- Steel is easier to get repaired than fiberglass. They think in terms of 'welding on a new plate'
- It is simpler to make a steel boat that is a 'one off' than a fiberglass boat. We knew what we wanted, and it wasn't available in fiberglass. Thus we really had no choice.
The list of what we didn't like about steel hulls is much longer:
- Maintenance is a nightmare. If you aren't very careful, rust will creep in, and once you have it, it spreads. It's a constant battle, and often the rust is hidden behind walls.
- Resell value is lower
- We were told that it 'sweats' .. and, can be hotter on the inside
- Nothing is easy. No matter what you do, you need to be thinking about electrolysis. No two dissimilar metals can touch, or you will set up a chemical reaction.
Safety is a huge issue for us, and everyone seems to agree that steel wins in that department. One story that really caught our attention was here in La Paz Mexico. I noticed that all of the steel boats are on one dock. I asked why, and was told that during the hurricane a few years back, they had the steel boats randomly placed through the marina. In the story I was told, when the wind started pushing around the boats, the steel boats started crushing the plastic boats. 'The steel boats moved through the fiberglass boats, like a knife through butter.' To avoid this going forward, they put the steel boats where they would just bounce off each other.
We're headed to the South Pacific. Bumping into a reef is not impossible. With steel you can make a mistake, and possibly survive it. Fiberglass has less forgiveness.
So.. why did we go with a Fiberglass Nordhavn?
We have tremendous respect for Nordhavn boats, and their management team. When they said they would build a boat exactly like what we were seeking, it became an easy decision. As I mentioned, safety is priority #1. Hull strength is certainly an issue, but it's only one of many. The ultimately quality of the boat, and the experience of the manufacturer are also important issues. It was important to be on a vessel that has proven it can cross oceans, not just one that 'technically' should be able to do it. Nordhavn's are proven ocean-crossers, whereas there wasn't at the time a proven solution (in a production powerboat) available in steel.
The nightmare of maintenance also worried me. I'm not the worst at maintaining a boat, but neither is it my strong suit. It's just Roberta and I on the boat. I didn't want to have to spend ALL of my time maintaining the boat.
-Ken W
| Williams, Ken |
2007-03-22 02:09:22
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Ken-
When you have a moment, would you be able to discuss your version of the steel vs. fiberglass debate? Beyond the unfriendly relationship of steel and electrolytes, and the non-steel durability of fiberglass, I and surely many other fans could use a brief education.
After reading your recent Mexican cruise memoir, I would say you are definitely now that much more of an experienced boater. What a trip, but all good memories I am sure?
Best,
Edward | doctor@pearsonwellnesscenter.com
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2007-03-21 20:35:02
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You've stumped me on this one. I know very little about them. I remember trying to hunt them down, and never finding them. I think I had doubts about whether or not they were still making boats.
Perhaps I should have dug deeper. I was just on their site, and it looks good. It is certainly easier to build a great website than a great boat, but my first impression is that they would have been worth talking to.
Molokai builds steel boats. Since making our decision to go with a Nordhavn, there have been days when I wished we had gone with a steel hull, and days where I am very thankful that we didn't.
I sincerely hope I am never in a situation where it would have made a difference.
-Ken W
| Williams, Ken |
2007-03-19 16:20:03
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What is known of Molokai Straits Yachts. Aside from being steel, they appear to have some Nordhavn style toughness, but I know nothing of the fit, finish, systems, etc?
| doctor@pearsonwellnesscenter.com
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2007-03-17 19:57:53
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In effect, we did look at American Expedition Yachts.
There's quite a story to this... and, I'm not 100% sure that American Expedition Yachts would agree with this history, but I'll tell the story from my perspective anyhow.
American Expedition Yachts (AEY) is at least partially a spinoff group of ex-employees from Northern Marine.
We approached Northern Marine, and asked them to design a 68' boat for Roberta and I. We discussed exactly what we were looking for, and Stuart Archer, then at Northern Marine, designed us a boat. Based on his presentation, we green-lighted the project, and asked for a contract. After receiving the contract, and before signing it, we started doing our due-diligence on Northern Marine.
The feedback we received from Northern Marine was very consistent. They produce a great boat, but virtually everyone said to expect enormous cost overruns and schedule slippage. Also, as I dug deeper, I started hearing about cash flow problems at Northern Marine.
Further confusing us, Northern Marine suddenly stopped pushing us to sign the contract. They then announced a huge layoff, and that Stuart Archer was no longer with the company. Stuart called a few days later to say that he was now working to start a new company, which has become AEY, and did we still want to build the 68. There was no way we wanted to build a boat with a start-up.
Throughout all of this, we were in contract with Nordhavn for an N64. To make a long story short, we shifted focus to building a custom steel boat. But then, when we canceled our agreement for the N64, we explained to Nordhavn why we thought the N64 didn't work for us, and why we felt the 76 was too large for us -- and, the N68 was launched.
-Ken W
| Williams, Ken |
2007-02-23 14:08:47
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Dear Ken
You, occasionally, mentioned that you had looked at alternatives to Nordhavn. Via the Trawler Fest website I stumbled upon American Expedition Yachts, which look pretty impressive.
Just out of curiosity, did you look at them as well and if so what made you dismiss them in favour of Nordhavn?
Peter Mueller | Mueller, Peter |
2007-02-23 12:03:23
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