COMMENTS - Through April 2007
For current comments, CLICK HERE
Peter: Our dog is older (10), so we don't think she could take a six week quarantine. We're hoping that the quarantine requirement will be lessened because of coming from a rabies-free country. If we can't find a way to get Shelby into New Zealand, we might head for the Caribbean for a few years and do a backwards circumnavigation -- or, use freighters to ship the boat past any countries that are not dog friendly. We'll figure it out. Feel free to ask any question at any time.. as you can tell from my postings, I'm very passionate about Nordhavn. We had a great time on our 62, primarily cruising the Pacific NW and the Med. We're thinking of this new boat as our "home" for the next 10 years and tried to set it up with every comfort we could imagine. I look forward to meeting you someday! - Ken W
Ken, Thanks for your prompt reply, I look forward to talking to Nordhavn directly, however it is always god to have an outside view. After thinking about remodeling our existing boat I think we will build new and get what we want now.... I know this changes over time but at least we can start off with the right boat. We brought our dog to NZ but he had to do six weeks in quarentine in Europe before we put him on a plane and flew him to NZ where we picked him up at the airport and took him home. Good luck with the dog and hpe to see you in NZ sometime. Pete and Cherry
Peter: Hopefully this is ok, but I gave your email address to Nordhavn. Don't be surprised if you wake up tomorrow and have an army of Nordhavn sales people camped in your front yard (actually .. you won't .. the Nordhavn people are fairly laid back). I just asked Dan Streech last week about the backorder on the 68, and apparently it has been extremely popular. They are backordered SEVERAL years into the future. That said, it's always worth talking to them. If you need something soon, it could be worth talking to them about the semi-new 76 they have sitting in Seattle. As to New Zealand ... our current plan is to be there in 2010, although we have a complicated issue with our dog. We travel with our dog Shelby, who won't let us go anywhere without her, and New Zealand is extremely difficult to get a foreign dog into. We're going to Hawaii first and hope that because it is a rabies-free country, we can somehow work the system to get from there into New Zealand. If it turns out that we can't enter Australia or New Zealand, I'm not sure what we'll do. To return to your original question, our wait for this boat was about two years from when we signed the contract to delivery. Nordhavn has multiple factories, and multiple models. Some have very short lead times, and some have very long lead times. Good luck with a tough decision! -Ken W
Hi Ken, just found your site. Currently have a 60 foot steel cruiser somewhat the same design as the N62. I have been looking for a replacement for sometime - think I have now found it in the N68. Thanks for getting PAE to design this N62 replacement. We are currently planning our cruising future, can you give me some idea of time from initial plan and order to expected delivery and commisioning. Congratulations to you both. Pete. PS when do you plan to be in New Zealand?
With respect to the BBQ... Yes that is an issue. I suspect it is only one of dozens of similar issues that we'll be sorting out during commissioning. My boat will be a rougher commissioning than most for three reasons: 1) It is the first of a new model, 2) It is a very custom boat, and 3) Larry Smith's (our electronics supplier's) demise has left the electronics a bit of a mess. None of this is Nordhavn's fault, yet they are going way out of their way to help me get this all done as quickly as possible, so I can get cruising asap. Unfortunately the cruising season in the Pacific NW is fairly short. We want to get the boat to Seattle by the first week of July if at all possible. - Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (4/27/2007 6:52:53 PM) Ken, I have noticed in several pictures over the past months that the port side cockpit hatch doesn't open fully due to it's proximity to the BBQ facia. Will this present a problem for Lazerette access? Is there any way the BBQ facia can be modified to allow the hatch clearence to open fully? Or is it something you have to accept? Hopefully Nordhavn overcome this in future models. Great to finally see the boat in DP.
Comment by: Visitor (4/26/2007 10:06:50 PM) I would also like to add my congrats to you both! I think you need to start a new book though.... Ken W.'s "Semi custom boat guide"! best wishes.
Comment by: Visitor (4/26/2007 9:12:16 PM) Congratulations to both of you. Obviously a very exciting time for both of you & i am sure the coming weeks will be very busy. I was surprised to see the cradle holing your boat is actually welded to the deck of the transport ship. I always thought it would be held in place by a series of chains & shackles.
Good luck to both of you & i look forward to further updates
Thank you everyone! Roberta and I are unbelievably excited. It has been a long time since we saw the boat, other than in pictures. We finally get to see it early next week, and can't wait. The next two months are going to be busy ones. Roberta will be working with Scott Cole, the interior design person to work on drapes, carpets, furniture, tilework, etc. Meanwhile, I'll be working with three different companies to sort out the electronics that were left in a somewhat unknown status by Larry Smith Electronics' demise. I'll also be trying to learn as much as I can about the boat. Although I'm not a total novice to boating, I am certainly a novice to this boat, and want to understand its' systems far better than I ever did our 62.
A big day! - Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (4/26/2007 8:17:02 PM) Enjoy the new boat! MxCoder
Comment by: Visitor (4/26/2007 5:01:35 PM) Having followed its growth stages and your own trials and tribulations I can only say: Fantastic - It has arrived, at last. All the best to you, Roberta, and Sans Souci II. What a great moment. I can hardly believe it. May be one day I'll be able to see it in the flesh - and congratulate you in person, of course.
Peter Mueller
I just saw that your ship has come in. I honestly don't know how you have kept yourself from showing up at the dock. I am headed to Newport Beach next week and I am sure I will run by Dana Point just to take a peak!
Congratulations to you and Roberta on the arrival of your baby!
Scott: I don't know if the Mag Bay incident was a delivery or not. I think a friend of the owners was on board, although perhaps you are right, and it was a delivery. I had previously met the captain, Brian Saunders, and my first impression was very positive. My understanding of the incident, which is based solely on third hand rumor, is that they were site seeing several miles off shore, and bumped into an uncharted rock. They were taking on water, and beached the boat successfully. After beaching the boat, one of the passengers (crew? owner?) tripped on a wet rock running a line to shore and died. I do think that incidents such as this can provide valuable lessons, and my personal "takeaway" from this incident was "run well offshore when in poorly charted territory". As I said, I know virtually nothing about this incident, so I shouldn't even have an opinion .. but, a lack of knowledge usually doesn't stop me saying something .. thus, I'll say that my interpretation of the chart was that they were too far south of Mag Bay to have thought they were entering the bay. I was here in Cabo on that day, and at least here, it wasn't a bad weather day. I doubt weather was a factor. I think they were just siteseeing at what they felt to be a safe distance from shore, and guessed wrong. The lesson in this (if there is one) is: you can't be too cautious. - Ken W
This may not be the forum for this comment and I mean no disrespect, but the incident at Mag Bay I don't think had anything to do with using a delivery crew or not. In aviation we try to share our good and bad experiences extensively so that everyone can learn.With that said, it seemed to be more related to two concepts we use in aviation. The first is "get-home-itis." making plans that are more focused on time than more important factors like weather and experience. The second is "situational awareness" knowing where you are not guessing. Its seemed from looking at the charts and the topograhpy that they might have thought they were headed into Mag Bay becasue of the hills that frame the location where they beached the boat. If the wave height was high and the visability low, they may have reduce the gain on the radar and missed the land connecting the hills. Combine that with a general knwoledge that charts outside US are suspect, a HUGE desire to "stop the beating" and they may have talked themselves into supporting an incomplete radar image.
My heart goes out to the families involved.
Comment by: Visitor (4/25/2007 3:45:00 AM) Ken, i found the source of where i read that thought, it is on page 27 of the 2006 - 07 Circumnavigator Magazine within the article on the N72. I definately agree with your thoughts on delivery crews, especially after the unfortunate incident last year near Mag Bay
It's an interesting thought, but tough to believe this could ever be seriously considered. I shipped our 62 a couple times via a freighter across the Atlantic. I also hired a delivery crew to run it once from Seattle to Miami. I personally found shipping via the freighter (Dockwise Yacht Transport) far more reliable and easier on the boat. As rough as it is for a 70' boat to sit on the deck of a 500'+ boat, it's a lot rougher sitting in the water. I don't remember all the problems we had on delivering our boat to Miami, but I remember it being a miserable time for both us and the crew. There were weather delays, maintenance issues, crew issues, etc -- plus we just didn't like the idea of strangers running around our boat without us for weeks, that dragged to months.
When I'm at Nordhavn next week I'll ask whether or not they ever seriously considered doing cross-ocean deliveries on the boat's own bottoms. I'll be surprised if the answer is yes...
-Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (4/25/2007 1:24:58 AM) Ken, i remember reading an article somewhere several months agoabout PAE considering the option of bringing the boats to the USA on their own bottom. When you consider not only the cost of shipping, but also the delays in waiting for a suitable ship (in your case about 5 weeks) it could be a reasonable thing to do. What are your thoughts on this?
I'm comfortable that all is well. The boat is going to show up in Dana Point very dirty, and very salty, but by Monday, when I arrive in Dana Point, she'll look beautiful.
An interesting side note to this is that when I spoke with Nordhavn's CEO he did mention that the daily updates from the freighter had been unusual. The sea state they described was definitely a rougher ride than most. I never really worried about it, thinking that these big freighters cross the Pacific every day, and it wasn't a big deal. I'm very happy no one ever told me that the daily description of "Very Rough Seas" was something I should be concerned about. -Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (4/25/2007 12:03:44 AM) That is a disturbing email Ken and further explains the reason for the torn covers. I think i speak for everyone who reads this site in hoping all is well with your boat. I guess all will be revealed in about 48 hours.
I do recall hearing about a KK58 that was lost over the side a few years ago, that would be a heartbreaking experience for the owners after the long building process. Pls keep us informed
Scott: I had never thought of this - but, you are certainly right. Will do! - Ken W
additional "safety" can be introduced by adding reflective material to the outboard ends of the flopper stoppper poles to and various spots on the tender...maybe a good idea no matter what.
I would encourage you when using your tender to go ashore, using a short cable lock when possible and at night in South America, unless your davit is a complete pain, I would lift the tender. Too bad something like Lo-Jack isn't available world wide;)
I went back to check the requirements for lighting while at anchor. Here is what it says in the regulations:
(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:
(i) in the fore part, an all-round white light or one ball;
(ii) at or near the stern and at a lower level than the light prescribed in subparagraph (i), an all-round white light.
(b) A vessel of less than 50 meters in length may exhibit an all-round white light where it can best be seen instead of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule.
In addition, there is this rule:
"...The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules ..."
This last one is kind of interesting in that supplemental lighting, such as I am prone to doing, MUST be done in such a way that the extra lights can't be misinterpreted. For instance, a red, green or yellow light randomly placed could easily be misinterpreted as some form of running light.
As you (Scott) point out, the flopper stoppers, and the tender, are unlit, and potentially a hazard.
On a somewhat related topic: I've been thinking a little about tenders. I had never really focused on how expensive tenders are. At $15,000+ each, these are real money. Roberta and I generally are on the boat alone, which means that if we go ashore to go to dinner, the tender is left sitting on the beach. At night, I generally leave the tender floating behind the boat while we sleep. This isn't a big deal most places, but this winter we'll be places like Guatemala where it could be an issue. There isn't really anything to be done about it, beyond using common sense about where we anchor or park the boat...
-Ken W
Scott: Interesting question about tenders bumping into Flopper Stoppers. I would think it would also be an issue for a towed tender. When at anchor, we almost always have our tender 5-10 yards behind the boat. All I can say is that we have anchored hundreds of times, and no one has bumped into us yet. Tenders aren't supposed to be running fast in the dark, although they often do. We were anchored at St Tropez one evening when a young man in a tender ran straight into the side of an anchored sailboat at highspeed (fatal). My recollection of the Colregs is that, at my size, I need nothing more than an anchor light. That said, I usually try to be lit as conspiculously as possible. I normally keep on the side lights and cockpit lights in addition to the anchor light. Sans Souci will be my first boat with underwater stern lighting, but I'm thinking that if I have a tender behind the boat I might run those lights as well. -Ken W
Ken,
A question about flopper-stoppers. I have read of all the great virtues of using these at anchor, but I haven't read how people handle the night time lighting issues. I have visions of small tenders flying by at high speed and getting caught. Any thoughts or practices to share?
And just a thought on transport covers...at the end of the day the boat is designed to be at sea...the cover could casue more chaffing harm then the offsetting protection would be worth...frankly I am somewhat surprised they cover them at all.
Your boat looks wonderful and I hope you are able to tease out your electronic and commissions issues. Wishing you continued good fortune
Scott
Comment by: Visitor (4/21/2007 8:01:08 PM) Hi Ken, You must be getting very excited now that your boat is finally in US waters. I guess you & Roberta will have a really hard time staying away from it during the initial commissioning process. It is very obvious by your latest pictures that the cover was there and at the same time i am very surprised that PAE only use lightwieght covers for transporting their boats. I would have thought with the number of boats they now produce, strong heavy duty covers would be more appropriate and they could be sent back to the factory for use on the following boat.
Update: I added some more pictures to the website. In them you can see a closeup showing that the cover was there, but has slid off. I noted several times during the voyage that the seas were "very rough" -- so apparently the cover ripped apart. -Ken W
Good question ... I don't know why the boat isn't covered. I notice one of the other boats has a cover hanging on it. My guess would be that they don't like to transport with covers. The covers catch the wind, and can blow off in high seas - creating a dangerous situation. Thank you! - Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (4/21/2007 1:44:47 PM) Awesome site Ken!
I bought your book, a bit ago, and loved it.
One question: When San Souci ll left she was covered. In the picture at Wa.
she appears uncovered. Just wondering why? or am I wrong.
Curious,
adam
David: I just double-checked the Alaska 2008 count, and I was incorrect - we're only at six, all Nordhavn, ranging from an N47 (Scott and Teri Strickland) to my N68. Go to http://www.rtwcruising.com and sign up for the survey. I'll activate your account as soon as I see you signed up. The website started with the goal of putting together a group to cross the Pacific, but has morphed lots of unexpected directions. Many of the boats want to see Alaska so we started tracking who is going to Alaska when. We're not doing a rally, like the NAR or the FUBAR. I'd like to, but don't have the time or energy to put into it - and, our group is very independent (as you'll see). -Ken W
PS My boat will be running around the Pacific NW this summer. We have a slip at Roche Harbor, but hopefully won't be there often. I have no idea where we'll wind up, but our only goal is to learn the boat. My plan is to just focus on learning the systems, and get comfortable driving the boat. I'm guessing we get as far north as Campbell River and Dent Island, and over to Victoria, but that's it. I hope to run into you!
Congrats on your awesome boat and thanks for sharing the dream. I have a Nordhavn 40 (Cowabunga) here in the Northwest. You mentioned, that there are 8 boats planning on cruising to Alaska in 2008. Is this primarily a group of Nordhavns? Is the group open for others to tag along - at least for part of the way?
Comment by: Visitor (4/17/2007 11:48:54 PM) Ken, Thankyou for the reply as it makes it easier to understand that decision. I hope you keep this site going so that we can all follow the progress of Sans Souci. I hope you have a smooth commisioning process and that the problems left by the demise of Larry Smith are not too great. May calm seas & fair winds be your constant companion.
Great question -- and, actually, the ride south from Seattle to Cabo is a good one. Plus, I REALLY wanted to do the FUBAR. It is really disappointing to be using Dockwise to move the boat, but it makes sense when you understand the bigger picture.
As soon as the boat finishes commissioning, Roberta and I will be on board for the run north to Seattle. My guess is we'll leave Dana Point around the last week of June headed north. Once we get to Seattle, we'll be on the boat non-stop throughout the summer. My guess is that between the run north, and cruising the Pacific NW and venturing some distance up the inside passage, we'll easily rack up 2,000 or 3,000 miles by September. We have a nice house in Seattle, and a son there we want to spend time with, before heading back south to our other home in Cabo. By shipping the boat, we get to spend some land-time, and get ready for our winter cruising. Starting in November, our plan is to cruise locally around Cabo and La Paz, but then starting in January, we'll be heading south to Costa Rica, working our way leisurely south over a four month period.
No sooner do we arrive in Costa Rica, in April 2008, when we are scheduled to ship the boat back to Seattle to begin a cruise north to Alaska in May 2008. I forget exactly how many boats, but I think there are around eight boats all planning to cruise Alaska together in the summer of 2008. As soon as we get to Alaska, several boats from the group, including mine, will be heading to San Francisco, to position for a crossing to Hawaii.
To make a long story short, we have SO many miles of cruising planned that I didn't feel at all guilty about "cheating" a bit.
-Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (4/17/2007 10:25:28 PM) Hi Ken, I have been following this site since it's inception, what a great yacht you have with the ability to point the bow in any direstion & go anywhere in comfort. I am a little surprised to see you are booking Dockwise to transport the boat from Seattle to Cabo, a coastal passage of around 2,000nm & well within the capabilities of this boat. With all the new systems you have to learn would this not be a great opportunity to put some hours on the boat to become more familiar with it for future passages, as well as the possibility of establishing any problems that may develop so that they can be rectified before you undertake the Pacific Crossing. I would have thought the first 300 to 500 hours of use to be very important for this. Thankyou for a great site & i am looking forward to seeing pictures of the Boat after commisioning.
Greetings John! I didn't realize there was a N40 on the same freighter. There is also a N76. I look forward to meeting you in Dana Point. What did you change about your 40 that causes you to want to sell and order a new one?
Here’s a story you'll understand:
A few days ago, I received an email from David Pabst, who identified himself as a Selene 53 owner. We have never met but were swapping correspondence on one of the various message boards about sea anchors and drogues. At the end of his email he mentioned that he and I were crossing the Pacific together. This puzzled me, as I do not show him listed as someone planning to cross the Pacific, or as having ever registered on the www.rtwcruising.com website. I wrote to him to state my confusion. His equally confused response: “We are indeed crossing the Pacific together! Your boat and mine are sitting next to each other, right now, out in the middle of the Pacific onboard the same freighter, enroute to the US.”
-Ken W
Hello Ken, very nice website and 68. My wife and I purchased 4061 which is on the same ship as your boat. I recieved your information from Jeff Merrill at PAE who sold us both 4050 and 4061. Yes we are also a repeat PAE customer but at a much level then you are. Look forward to possibly gettting together at DP during the commissioning process. We live local and plan to check on the boat weekly.
Comment by: Visitor (4/5/2007 5:49:31 PM) Ken,
I'm glad Sans Souci II is finally moving and thanks for updating the google map...
Peter S
Rod: Yes -- We've already bought a defibrillator (Philips) and an extensive first aid kit. -Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (4/3/2007 10:01:55 AM) Ken:
Are planning for a defibrillator in your on board medical kit??
Rod Sumner
Comment by: Visitor (4/3/2007 1:37:12 AM) , ken, i came to that assumption within about 2 minutes of reading the email. How did the heart monitor react after the first few lines, i can only guess.
It's now up to you to get a few back......lol
That's a great (but wrong) guess! -Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (4/2/2007 10:36:04 PM) 10 out of 10 on that email, did you spill your coffee. good to see your protecting scott, i guess its all stricktly for fun
The plot thickens!!! As it turns out, Nordhavn senior management was somewhat involved in the "April Fools Un-Joke."Check this out. It's a dialog between Dan Streech (Nordhavn head hauncho) and Scott The Perpetrator.
-Ken W
Ken,
You have a good sense of humor...that piracy e-mail must have just killed you...I ave visions of you pulling at your hair saying "why me" and "this couldn't $%^& be happening"
nice to know your fellow norhavian's are looking out for you;)
I sure would hate to be in Scott's shoes. LOL
Some of the woodwork is being done by Nordhavn, and some major pieces are being done by a local craftsman in Seattle. The dining room table, chairs and cocktail table, were done by Brad Gallahar who I just added to the bottom of the "The Team" page on this site. The work done by Nordhavn is exceptional, although it came at an extra cost. I think our surplus charges for woodwork were the highest yet on a Nordhavn...
-Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (3/29/2007 11:36:50 AM) Ken,
Your ship is amazing and your furniture is incredible! Is Nordhavn building the furniture themselves? I was just wondering if someone could buy such beautiful table without yacht?
Peter S
George: You've made me smile! -Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (3/14/2007 9:50:16 PM) Ken,
Glad to see that Nordhavn is shipping your vessel beneath such a stylish tarp. It would be such a shame to have it pull in to Dana Point with a drab single shade blue or gray bonnet.
George
We looked at Farmont. My recollection is that they were formerly known as Peer Gynt and were based in Turkey. When we looked at them, they had just been taken over by a new owner, and had produced only one boat under the new owners, which was the owners personal boat. It was a great looking boat, very modern, with a look that both Roberta and I liked. With them in Europe, and only one boat produced (at the time, three years ago), we were never able to put it together to see one of their boats. Plus, Nordhavn agreed to build the 68, so all discussions with others stopped. - Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (3/14/2007 7:19:24 AM) Ken
If you look at the latest press release by Nordhavn ( http://www.nordhavn.com/news/pressrelease/flagships.php4) you might not be that long away from seeing and walking on an 86. According to them No.1 will arrive at Dana Point in July! The one going to the UK will be No. 3, by the way. Guess who is going to be in Southampton in early 2008?! ==> Hmmm, I am wondering whether one could run an 86 as a couple? Now, there's a thought.
I can't wait to see the first drawings of the new 120-footer they want to build.
I have also found a German builder whose boats look quite impressive, though not as elegant as Nordhavns in my opinion. They are Farmont Yachts at http://www.farmontyachts.com/de/main/farmontyachts_de.htm if you are interested.
Regards
Peter
Peter: I hadn't realized that the first 86 is going to Europe. I hope I am able to see one someday. Perhaps 30 years from now, when we're too old to run a boat ourselves, we'll get something like a crewed 86, and just spend time exploring the world. It would be a great life.. -Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (3/12/2007 8:43:52 AM) Dear Ken
You are spot-on with regards to this bizarre powerboat craze here in Europe. Believe me, it is not just all the rage in the Med. Here in the UK it is the same. Maybe the density of multi-million dollar yachts is not quite as high in Southampton as it is in Monaco but in principle there is no difference. As a matter of fact, not long ago I spoke to an instructor who had been in the marine and yachting business for over 30 years (and, therefore, should know what he is talking about). He told me that a considerable number of boats are actually used as weekend cottages now and never leave the marina at all. It really is ridiculous.
Only, if your 62 caused such commotion amongst the hoipolloi the 68 will truly make a 'splash' (sorry, couldn't resist that pun).
What is good, though, is that, while you are correct about trawler yachts being in the minority over here, they are definitely getting more and more attention and fans. If the European office of Nordhavn is to be believed they draw crowds wherever they turn up and, apparently, in early 2008 the first 86!!! will be delivered to the UK.
Peter Mueller
Peter:
Thank you! This thread on "cruising alone" reminds me of something else unusual about Roberta and I, and probably about trawler-owners in general.
A great deal of our cruising has been in the Med, where the culture is very different than in the US. In Europe, virtually any powerboat over about 60' has a captain/crew. On our dock, at Beaulieu-Sur-Mer, just outside Monaco, Roberta and I were the only self-crewed power boat on the entire dock. All of the crew on the other power-boats naturally assumed Roberta and I were paid crew. We were the "talk of the dock" in that everyone thought we were probably the worst crew in Europe, and even weirder, our owners never seemed to come to the boat. We took our turn chuckling amongst ourselves at them, in that the normal drill was that once a week, the crews would swap from their normal costume of no-shirt, bare feet and shorts, to full uniforms. This meant the owners were coming. Flowers would be set about, and towels, then a few hours later a car would pull up with fancy-looking owners, who would step aboard the vessel (looking important). The powerboat, would then venture from the port, going about 500 yards down the shore. The owners would have lunch, and the boat would return to port. The culture in Europe is to have fast powerboats. Trawlers are virtually non-existent. Everyone had 30+ knot multi-million dollar boats -- just to day-anchor within site of the marina. I'm overly-generalizing, but not by much. There were certainly exceptions, but this is what we saw most of the time. We always got a kick out of it.
On the other hand, Roberta and I liked to compare ourselves more to the sailboats, and could usually be found anchoring with the sailboats amongst the various islands. We ran our own boat, and loved nothing more than anchoring, swimming, eating on the back deck, with a good bottle of wine, and exploring.
Our 62 was a bit out of place amongst the sailboats, and our 68 will be even more out of place -- but, so be it. Roberta and I will continue to confuse the powerboat crews, and follow the sailboats. Oh well...
-Ken W
In response to the question about the stove exhaust: Check the bottom of the Operations Manuals page. I just added the manual for our Microwave -- it is meant to be placed over a stove, and incorporates the vent/blower. - Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (3/8/2007 7:58:38 AM) I did not see an exhaust above the stove, is there one?
Comment by: Visitor (3/8/2007 4:27:49 AM) Dear Ken
As usual, I have just had my regular morning fix of 'Ken's 68' (followed by a visit to the Nordhavn and then Egret sites). I have tried to cut down but then I get sweaty palms and start to shake so no good at all.
On a more serious note it was most interesting to read your recent comments on being alone on one's boat versus having a crew. For years the fact that I could not see running a boat of the size I thought desirable with just two people, meant to me that I would probably never be able to 'mess about in boats' in the way I dreamed of. However, having made the mental switch from sailing to motoring your example and the growing sophistication of trawler-style yachts with their electronic and mechanical aides demonstrates that my dream is far from dead. On the contrary, especially since I, like Roberta and you, would never want a crew around me, many Nordhavn owners show it does work. Once again many thanks for sharing all your experiences and wisdom. It is a great motivator and invaluable resource.
After all this time it is all the more incredible that, as you put it, the Taiwan leg of Sans Souci's life is coming to an end. I went back to the first postings of images from 18 months ago. Compared to the recent 'Last Picture' they are quite similar. There is not much to see on either. Back then there were just molds, now she has disappeared under a tarpaulin - and yet they represent almost two different worlds.
Good luck. I hope everything goes well and you won't have to wait too long before arrival at Dana Point.
Peter Mueller
Comment by: Visitor (3/6/2007 4:12:40 PM) Hey Ken, Loved the book...Thanks !
Ran across this website for fuel. Thought it might be of interest for your upcoming global travels. http://www.globalyachtfuel.net/index.htm
Regards,
David King
It's tough to say how much time I spend on the construction. I'm averaging at least a couple of hours each day, and have been throughout the two years this project has been going. That said, very little of this is "required." Nordhavn has built plenty of boats without me, and doesn’t need my “help.”
Roberta and I are planning to circumnavigate. This fact changes radically how well I need to know our new boat. Although I’ve run 10,000+ miles, I’ve always known that I could call someone to bail me out if anything went too far wrong. Even on the Atlantic crossing, we had people on board who could handle the mechanical end of things. I won’t have this luxury on the circumnavigation. Much of the time it will just be Roberta and I, with the nearest help thousands of miles away. I’ve been working hard to make myself a safer captain, and this has meant understanding all the equipment on the new boat, and trying to prepare myself to repair it. It has also meant heavy reading on weather, understanding marine electrical systems, and even diesel engine repair. I have also used the time to obtain both a US and European Captain’s license. Also, when we designed our 62, we were thinking in terms of weekend trips. Outfitting a boat to become your home, in distant places, is a far different and far more intense exercise.
As to your question about wet vs dry exhaust…. Someone (perhaps you) posted a question on this topic on the bulletin board, so I’ll answer it there.
-Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (2/27/2007 1:48:38 PM) Ken - thanks for providing a great resource. could you comment on a couple of things. First, how much time have you spent on the construction of your 68. it seems like this is more than a full time job. Second, what are the relative advantages of dry vs wet exhaust and bulb and no bulb. Has nordhavn changed their mind about dry exhaust and bulbs?
Comment by: Visitor (2/25/2007 1:46:09 PM) ken, the recent pictures of your boat look fantastic. I really like Roberta's approach to the ceilings. They look great. It was also interesting to see the mockup of the 68 next to your old 62. Fay and I really enjoy following the process of this one. I hope you can give us a tour one day soon. Again please look us up if you are in the New York area. All the best Peter and Fay Bisson. pebisson@aol.com
Ken and Roberta,
So great to see her floating! What a magnificent vessel! I know you are going to have a great deal of fun with that boat. I will buy you dinner for a tour when you come through SC on the intercoastal!
Thanks for allowing dreamers like me to watch the process on this page. It has been fascinating.
Good luck!
Mike Zemke
I don't like to pretend I know more than I do --- because this is an area where I am way out of my league .. but...
I agree. If something goes seriously wrong, it is more likely to be mis-wiring, than it is dirty power. A properly wired (and designed) circuit should not "fry" regardless of what you throw at it. There are exceptions, such as lightning, -- but, most of the time, if there is an electrical fire, someone messed up the wiring.
I've reread several times the sections in Nigel Calder's book on marine grounding systems, and still get confused.
As someone who is planning to circumnavigate, this is a serious subject. I need to be able to fix the critical systems on the boat, and nothing scares me more at sea than the potential for fire. I have a pretty good sense of where I'm weak and where I'm strong. When it comes to the electrical systems, I'm now about a 2 on a scale of 1 to 10. This is not great, but when I crossed the Atlantic, I was a 0 -- so, the trend line is good, even if I'm not "there" yet. Luckily, the electrical system on the Nordhavn is fairly forgiving. Mickey understands that not everyone is at his level, and took that into account when he designed the system (I hope!) I've been using the time while waiting for our new boat to focus on fixing those areas where I am weak. It's not easy, but I am making progress.
-Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (2/22/2007 9:11:13 PM) Generally speaking, 'dirty power' on a boat is typically considered a minor problem. For a number of reasons, the power sources on board a boat are considered less capable of supporting high voltage, high current transient events, they are not what is know as a 'stiff' source. Next, except for a few pumps and the air condition system, the amount of equipment that can cause transients and non-linear loads is well defined, unlike the large switching and transients that can be generated in and industrial environment.
All this being said, the major cause for equipment damage due to electrical problems on a boat can usually be traced to incorrect system wiring. Most of the wiring errors I see are related to the fact that there are three and depending on the boat four grounding systems on a boat, AC grounding, DC grounding, Bonding and lighting protection. Given this and with the knowledge of a typical land based electrician, it is very easy to have currents flowing on one of these grounding systems. And since they are all interconnected possibility all of these systems. I have seen this more than once and in the extreme can cause damage to equipment and electronics. And you quested it, most of the time it's blamed on 'dirty power'.
Comment by: Visitor (2/22/2007 3:21:24 AM) Ken, just as way of comment on sea water ballast. (for those that may not know) Ships use sea water ballast routinely, because its removable, and obviously - cheap. Very Large Crude Carriers , and those big LNG vessels when in ballast carry about 50,000 tonnes of ballast.
Naturally, to secure 13,000 lbs of ballast on Sans Souci in sea water would take an aggregate of 5.6 cubic metres of space, plus pumping arrangements. Space, that would give you about 1,250 gallons of fuel - now, wouldn't that be nice ?
Stick with the lead - it's better for your GM. (Metracentric Height)
Thomas is right, ballasting the bulb (if possible) will decrease the pitching moment slightly, but may also incline the vessel "by the head" underway, which will lead to more spray on deck. (some ships actually go faster when trimmed slightly by the head.)
By the way, Sans Souci is also a name of a southern suburb in Sydney, so named by Captain La Perouse when he sailed into Botany Bay a few weeks after Captain Cook. For the sake of a few weeks, we could all have been speaking French!
Brdgs
Mark
The pictures of the ceiling are very nice. Old or new, they will a huge amount of light and feeling of space I think. Keep your eye on the prize becasue the end is near.
Rod:
I forwarded your comment to Mickey Smith to see if he wants to respond. I’m a software guy, not a hardware guy – so most of this is well over my head.
Here’s a little bit on what I do understand:
There are many different sources of power on the boat, all of which should yield clean power:
- The Atlas System – the Atlas shields me from shore power, and guarantees delivery of clean 220v 60hz power regardless of what is available at the dock.
- The generators - these will always give clean power
- The inverters - these will always give clean power
- The batteries - these are straight forward 12/24 volt dc power
- The alternators (both on the main engines and hydraulically powered) - these are used for charging the batteries, and are regulated to avoid over-charging.
All power consumed on the boat comes from one of these sources, and none are prone to voltage spikes. The highest risk power is shore power, and I am well isolated from it.
This said, anything electronic can fail, and lightning can create total havoc.
Mickey is an instructor for ABYC and designs electrical systems to be ABYC compliant. I'm confident that all circuits are protected by a combination of circuit breakers and fuses.
-Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (2/18/2007 11:31:29 AM) Ken:
having read various boat reports recently talking about 'dirty power' frying electronics/computers etc (plus my own industrial experience) I was wondering if you have installed any power conditioners/filters to prevent nasty spikes etc causing problems? Would be interested in hearing Mickey Smith's comments.
Congrats on the launch of Sans Souci II. By the way did you know there is a Sans Souci Island in Georgian Bay, Lake Huron
Rod Sumner
Thomas:
I heard that the boat has now been ballasted, and that they used 13,000 pounds of lead. I've never heard of using sea water for ballast, except in some boats use sea water as a form of stabilizers. The 68 doesn't have a bulb. This suprised me, as my 62 had one, and it did give us a longer water line. It (the bulb) didn't seem to have any downside -- but, Nordhavn seems to have gone away from the idea of doing bulbs.
Thank you! - Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (2/17/2007 8:28:53 AM) Ken,
I noticed your boat listing when initially launched and read the cautionary comment in the email that the ballast not being placed yet in the boat. Does Nordhavn use lead ballast exclusively or seawater or a combination of the two? Do you know if one is more beneficial than the other? I have heard of other vessels having the ability to fill the bulb with water to soften the pitching motion when needed and discharging the sea water when not needed and was wondering if you have had any conversations with anyone about that?
Regards,
Thomas
There are times that we have stood anchor watches. It really depends on if there is the potential for trouble or not. If there is no wind, and no other boats around, and, we're in well protected moorage -- we don't worry about it. Conversely, if there are other boats anchored closer to us than they should be, or the wind might come up -- then we certainly stand anchor watch. Normally, conditions are somewhere in between these two extremes. The normal case is that I set the clock to wake me up every couple of hours, and take a quick look around. We'll have a good monitoring system on the new boat. My hope is that I can set a trigger on wind speed, and have it wake me up if the wind rises above some limit (like 15 knots). -Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (2/15/2007 10:23:35 AM) you've said, several times, that you are an anchorer rather than a docker. do you have to stand anchor watches, or just go to sleep and fuggeddaboutit!
Comment by: Visitor (2/14/2007 9:00:18 AM) CONGRADULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOOKS GREAT
There will be a ladder, that hangs off the aft end of the bow, on either side. We'll have one ladder that can be deployed from either side.
I saw this done on a 62, and it works perfectly.
Thank you,
-Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (2/9/2007 10:03:31 AM) Can you tell me how you manage to board the dinghy after launching from the bow? I see there isn't a gate till you get about halfway back. Are you actually dragging it back that far or is there an accomodation ladder at the bow?
Ken,
Seeing the three boats from 62 to 76 is impressive. The first thought I had was, "wow those stabilizers are going to have to work much harder." After reading Steve Dashew's design work on his FPB and your own stories from crossing the atlantic, and personally coming from sailboats, it has given me a new appreciation for how important this single system is and how important it would be to be fully conversant on how to fix it if it ever broke at sea. You have two engines which is great, I hope you have the necessary backup pumps and parts to keep those "safety fins" working all the time.
I can't thank you enough for posting all of the materials you have. In addition to helping many of us think through our own design and equipment issues, your web-site has beecome a morning staple to be enjoyed with my first cup of coffee!
Scott
Patrick and Scott:
Thank you! You are right -- the boat looks a lot smaller floating. A "funny" side story: before deciding on the N68, we flew to Dana Point to see the N76. The N76 we visited was out of the water and looked HUGE. We couldn't envision ourselves running a boat of that size, and talked Nordhavn into doing the N68. Dan Streech still believes (perhaps correctly so) that if the N76 had been floating, it wouldn't have seemed so out of our league, and we might have gone that direction.
I'm very relieved to see the boat looking more manageable. That said -- it's still going to be a major project to wash it. Hopefully Roberta is up to the task! (grin)
-Ken W
Hey, she floats right side up! That's good enough for now. Congrats!
--Patrick
Ken and Roberta, congratulations!. The boat looks wonderful in the water. Its amazing how much smaller it looks which has to come as some relief!!!
As for waiting to see her, I am not sure I could wait!!! I may even have to drive down to Dana Point next time I am in CA just to lay eyes on her.
Best of luck
Comment by: Visitor (2/6/2007 12:24:08 PM) Dear Ken
Congratulations - what a fantastic sight after all the months of waiting. Having read your book, watched the NAR video and then followed Sans Souci's progress over the past few months I think I must have been almost as excited as you approaching the launch date.
I wish Roberta and you all the luck and fun imaginable with your new boat.
Yours
Peter Mueller
Boat Systems is the company name for "Mickey Smith", Nordhavn's electrical guru.
Mickey and I have a funny history together. Back in my prior life, when I was a computer game maker (Sierra On-Line - Kings Quest, Leisure-Suit Larry, etc), Mickey worked for Intel, and was assigned to Sierra as our technical contact. Mickey went on to retire and buy a Nordhavn 62, as did I.
Mickey is a genius, and one of the many reasons why Nordhavns are as awesome as they are. There are certainly "quibbles" I have with the system, but prior to ordering our 68, we did speak with most of Nordhavn's competitors, and I can say that I was distinctly unimpressed. Nordhavn has the most experience at taking boats around the world, and Mickey is himself a very accomplished Nordhavn owner.
-Ken W
PS Someone is almost certainly going to ask what I mean by quibbles -- here's the main one: (keep this in context though - I could write a book on things that are perfect with this boat) I have an "Atlas" international power conversion system on the boat. All shorepower runs through it. It whines, and eats a percentage of the power you feed it, but is absolutely what I need when on foreign power. The bad news is that even US power has to run through the Atlas - which means I get the whine and lost power, at a time when it isn't needed.
Comment by: Visitor (2/4/2007 10:02:45 PM) Ken,
Are you pleased with the work of Boat Systems? If doing this again are there electrical changes you would make?
Comment by: Visitor (1/25/2007 3:51:07 PM) Ken,
I too have followed your progress across the Atlantic, read the book, and seen every picture of the build- love your choices. Like the gold boot stripe- nice touch. I can get insurance for you if it becomes an issue- that's my business- would love to have a N in the fleet-mike@esgi.net
Mark: The boat should be in Dana Point around March 7th, and stay there until early May. Have him talk to Nordhavn's sales staff .. my guess is that a LOT of people will go through my boat in Dana Point. Also: We haven't firmed up plans, but there is a good chance it will be at Trawlerfest in Poulsbo Washington (mid-June). PS: Nordhavn has been busily taking orders for the N68. I think the soonest someone could get one is now out to 2010! -Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (1/23/2007 10:26:40 PM) Ken,
I look forward to it. By the way, when do you expect arrival for fit out? And final delivery date? My colleague is planning to see a number of Nordhavns in Dana Point in the next few months, and I'm wondering when yours might be fitting out. (And he has instructions to take a million photos.)
Thanks, and all the best.
Mark
Mark: Once Sans Souci is complete, the real fun will begin! We have something like 11,000 miles of voyaging planned for the first year. I did a blog for our Atlantic crossing, and will almostly certainly do one whever we are anywhere interesting with the new boat. My only concern is not wanting to spam or bore people. - Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (1/20/2007 1:12:48 AM) Ken,
Once you take delivery of Sans Souci, I hope you will keep this website going.
Brdgs
Mark
Art: On LSE: I'm not sure what else I could tell you. I don't know much myself. Their employees were shocked by it. I don't think the employees saw it coming. Florida has plenty of good outfits. You should have no trouble finding someone good. As to insurance: I haven't thought that far ahead. I don't need insurance until I take delivery of the boat in May. I need to start thinking about it. I'm assuming that since we are circumnavigating, I'll have a hard time finding an insurance carrier who will take me. As to offshore registration: I'm leaning towards US registration, but might go with offshore. I investigated offshore registration on our 62, and didn't like the process. You feel really slimy doing it. Not my style. You form a shell corporation that owns the boat on some offshore island, that you may never see. My current plan is to just USCG document the boat, and pay the washington acquisition tax. But, I do have a law firm looking at the issues. I'll report back what I find.
Good luck with your boat, and be happy you avoided going with LSE!
-Ken W
Ken just read your comments about LSE. I was planning on using them for my electronic/nav installation on my 58'. Primarily because the boat will be shipped to Florida for the Ft Lauderdale show 2007. Sure would like to know more. Also who will you use for insurance and have you decided whether you will registar her with an offshore country or stay with a USCG documentation? Pros and cons?
Art Hedlund
Stanley: I've removed your contact info off the website (spammers sometimes "scoop" email addresses off of websites, which can be annoying) -- but, I have it and will send you a seperate email offline with my contact info. I'm hoping you didn't lose money on the LSE disaster. I'm sure I did, but haven't been able to quantify it yet. Sorry to hear you were also trapped. I look forward to seeing you in Dana Point!
-Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (1/14/2007 9:35:10 PM) Ken,
I'm Stanley Riggs, I ordered N6235 which is the boat behind yours at the yard. For two years I have followed your progress - the NAR Rally blog, your book and recently your website. I read the daily posts on the owner's website but I have not as of yet had anything worthwhile to constribute. We are both clawing our way up a foreign learning curve.
LSE has been installing my electronics package at the yard with plans to complete this at Dana Point while commissioning both our boats. I was wondering what your plans are for replacing the services of LSE at Dana Point?
I look forward to meeting you during our mutual commissioning process in CA.
Regards
Stanley Riggs
The art screen is from http://www.mediadecor.com/home.htm The painting is on canvas, and rolls up, at the press of a button to reveal the television behind it. Roberta (the admiral) is trying to create the feeling of an old-time boat, and thought a visible plasma tv wouldn't fit in. I of course said "huh?"
-Ken W
Ken, New to you site. Came in thru TWL. Looks like a fabulous boat, hope your hassles are few and your cruising days are long.
I had a question on your "art" screen in the master. Great idea by the way. Is it on a soft canvas and roll up like some pull down maps or viewing screens, or is it mounted on a hard background?
How is it secured at the bottom?
Thanks. No hurry at all. Just curious and may want to add something like that to my boat.
Enjoy the boat.
Michael Liddle
53' Navigator
FTL
George:
That would have been a great idea, and if I had it to do over again, I would explore it. Currently, each of the systems was purchased seperately from different vendors, so they all work independently.
The other air source on the boat is the air-horn. It has a huge air holding tank, and I will have sockets for plugging in to it from various places around the boat (for filling fenders).
While I'm on the topic of Fenders, I ordered one of the "extreme duty" inflatables from this company: http://www.praktek.com/ I ordered the 18"x58" size, and just inflated it in my garage. Awesome. I'm thinking we get a bunch of these, and blow them up as we need them.
-Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (1/7/2007 11:42:14 AM) Ken,
I have been following your progress on the 68...good luck on what appears to be a great boat. I have noticed you have many items aboard that will require compressed air; i.e. pressure washer, air horn, Hookah, and scuba. Was there any consideration given to one universal compressor to power all items as opposed to compressors dedicated to each item or was there a specific reason to use multiple compressors, assuming that is what you have done.
George
Here's a video showing the launch of N6401, atTa Shing (the Nordhavn factory in Taiwan). I wonder if my boat will also get fireworks?
Sans Souci had several pieces of loose furniture in the main salon, and amazingly, it stayed in place through some very rough water. On our new boat, the large furniture will be anchored to the floor, and we'll rig something with bungee cords to keep the dining room chairs in place during rough seas. The bad thing about this is that the hatches in the floor of the salon, that provide access to the top of the engine room, will have stuff screwed to them. It will be a major nightmare to get into the engine room from above. Roberta's answer to this is: if it is a major repair, the effort will be worth it, and if it's just normal stuff, we can get to the engine room through the door. I "guess" this is ok. The boat will be our home, so Roberta wants it to look and feel like a comfortable home.
-Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (12/22/2006 2:36:20 AM) Ken
You write about the boat being possibly in the water by January, 15th. What a start to the new year that would be.
Your comment to one of the most recent images was that you had chosen 'free standing' furniture in the salon. But how do you 'tie it down' when at sea?
Peter
I don't understand the licensing issues on ssb. My current plan had been to get a radio, but not transmit unless it's an emergency situation. I'll have books on board, and try to know the frequencies -- but, if I'm only using the ssb for emergencies, the last thing I'll worry about in an emergency situation will be whether I get a ticket for not having a proper license.
I'm assuming that in an emergency, my first resource will be the VHF radio -- The DSC VHF radio has an emergency button that will relay the mayday everywhere. Second I'll use the sat phone (I will have at least three different sat phones on board). If neither of those are working, it's pretty unlikely the SSB will be working -- but, I'll also give it a try. In non-emergency situations, my primary communications medium will be via the internet.
This all said, if getting a SSB license isn't a huge effort, I will definitely go for it. I did some checking and was having trouble finding a class that fit my time schedule.
-Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (12/18/2006 11:09:18 AM) This means a person can now get a General Amateur Radio Operator's license and greatly extend his communication range while on board. by as much as 8000 to 10,000 miles if conditions are good.
Comment by: Visitor (12/16/2006 11:08:36 AM)
FCC MODIFIES AMATEUR RADIO SERVICE RULES,
ELIMINATING MORSE CODE EXAM REQUIREMENTS AND
ADDRESSING ARRL PETITION FOR RECONSIDERATION
Art:
We don't have a project manager at Larry Smith, which is a major problem. Currently, our sales guy, John Thaw, seems to be the project manager. I complained (a lot) recently, and have been assured that it was a momentary glitch, and that I am going to be very impressed from here on out. Let's hope that is true...
The N64/68 comes standard with Sealand. We originally specified Headhunter, and were depressed when we couldn't make it work. The problem is that Headhunter is gravity feed, and some of the toilets on our boat lack the required height above the holding tank. We are using the Sealand M series pumps, meant for use in commercial applications. I HATE dealing with toilet issues, and these things will supposedly eat anything. I've had very good reports on them.
As to watermaker: I don't know the FCI system. Several Nordhavn owner friends have the Village Marine system, and all have had great luck. This is an area where I didn't do much research. I met the tech rep at a couple boat shows, and was impressed with what I saw, plus got good feedback from others.
The screen doors are from: http://www.phantomscreens.com/
Your last couple of questions, I am lost on. What is a lighting diffuser? Also... why would you need a zinc saver system for the ASEA?
I'd call you -- but, indirectly, a side goal of this site is a resource for others who are also struggling with knowing the right decisions when designing their boats. I don't know many answers, but hopefully we can at least help them know what the questions are.
Ken, Our boat has slipped 3 months so delivery will now be Ft Lauderdale for their October Show instead of Vancouver. Who is your project manager at Larry Smith? Have you been pleased with their performance. Why did you select sealand/vacuflush? Which model? My wife has heard some horror stories of this system. My friend Ron of the 62 Bon Vie is happy with his. How about Village Marine, same question. Did you compare it to the FCI system? Finally what company did you buy your aft door privacy/screen system? So many questions. Are you installing a lightning diffuser? If so which one? Should I still install zinc saver system even though I am installing a ASEA shore power converter? If you want please call me on 603-498-9898. Your help is much appreiciated. Art Hedlund Tradition 58
Thank you .. I definitely feel very lucky to be getting this boat. At times I feel guilty about it, but keep in mind that this will be our home for much of the next 10 years. It will be a very comfortable home -- but, you could also build an argument that we will be living in what is roughly equivalent in square footage to a 2,000 square foot house. Within that 2,000 square feet we need to provide for our own water, electricity, sat tv, communications, etc -- and, I need to learn to repair every bit of it. I'm not complaining. It will an awesome life, but it won't all be a life of luxury by any means. -Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (12/13/2006 3:19:00 PM) ken i have just read your book.congratulations on your new nordhavn 68.ps. you lucky dog.lol
The bad thing about being the first boat of a new model is that there are so many unknowns. No one knows what our engine room temperature is going to be. I've been nervous enough about it that the blower system has really been beefed up.
Probably my bigger issue is going to be the lazarette. Ordinarily, I don't think Nordhavn does ANY exhaust fan in the lazarette. As I type this, my recollection is that we added an exhaust fan, but no intake fan. It's scary when you think of all the potential sources of heat in the lazarette: Batteries, the Atlas power system, the Kabola heater, the watermaker, four air conditioning chillers and a 16kw generator.
Here again, I'm thinking that very little of this will be generating heat most of the time. The Atlas should never be on, except when in port. The Kabola will only be running non-stop on very cold nights (we're using it for space heating, water heating, and heating the hot tub). The chillers will normally only be run when in port, or at anchor. The watermaker is really the only heat source that will be used while under way.
Our first few trips will be VERY interesting, as I see if all of my "guesses" were somewhat accurate.
-Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (11/24/2006 4:38:26 PM) Ken:
I mis typed/composed the first part of last post! of course the inverters will only be used (intermitently) at full power when no main or generator is operating thus hopefully no cooling fans will be required.
Just my experience with power supplies is the cooler the better!!!
Rod
Rod - you could be right that this is an issue, but I've convinced myself it won't be.
There are only a couple times when the invertors will be used.
1) While underway. Normally, while underway, power requirements will be mimimal. Perhaps we'll hit some days near the equator where we'll run the air conditioning underway, but I can't imagine this. Historically, we've just opened the windows and doors, and enjoyed the fresh air. If we did want the air conditioning while under way, I'll have plenty of power available to run the blowers. Also: I'm assuming that if we were running the air conditioning, it would be just the pilot house. I'm not the type to push things. I have 14kw of inverter, to handle short burts of electricity, not sustained usage. My understanding is that the inverters are set such that they are only on if needed. Except for short bursts for the microwave, only one of the four inverters is likely to be generating power.
2) At anchor: At most, while I at anchor, we'll have one chiller running. In this scenario, the engines wouldn't be running, so the 1.5kw of heat going into the engine room shouldn't be enough to cause any type of overheating. If need be, I'll turn on the blowers, but doubt I'll need to.
I don't understand why you think the inverters would be at full power with the engine running. On Sans Souci, we used very little current while underway, and in eight years of running, I don't remember once running the air conditioning while under way. I have the high inverter capacity to handle making popcorn in the microwave, and quickly cooking lunch -- not for sustained usage.
-Ken W
Comment by: Visitor (11/24/2006 11:49:57 AM) Ken:
Seems that you are proactively working on potential problems. Congratulations! With 14 KW of inverters running at 90%(?) efficiency that means 1.5 KW of heat 'spilled' in to an already warm area. The extra engine room exhaust fans should help, Have you thought of ducting some air flow to the specific inverter area to dissipate this extra heat faster? Any cooling will help prevent the viscious cycle of higher ambient temp/less efficiency/more heat etc etc. Such ducting may not be practicable however it should pay off in longer equipment life. From other stories inverter failure is not unusual and I have always wondered if excess heat was a contributory cause.
Having read your other posts it seems that the inverters will be run at full power when the engines are not running so running the exhaust fans then should be a great help
Rod
Rod: Geat issues. When Mickey raised the issue of the high current, and needed visual inspections, I started worrying. I do believe that Simon could monitor those connections. I'll ask the Simon people that question. When I asked Simon's President whether or not most people actually use the monitoring, he said that something like 90% of customers are back within a year to add additional things to monitor.
I've been worried about heat in the engine room. Sans Souci's engine room was uncomfortable to spend any amount of time in - a consistent 125 degrees. This engine room will have a lot more electronics, and dual engines. However, Sans Souci had dry exhaust, and I've heard that wet exhaust runs cooler. I've also spoken to several Nordhavn 64 owners, all of whom are running engine room temps of 110 or under.
The engine room temperature is critical, because the inverters are in the engine room. The inverters lose efficiency as the temperature increases. As an extra measure, I beefed up the exhaust fans in the engine room, and do have Simon monitoring engine room temperature.
-Ken W
Ken:
In my work we work with really big rectifiers (inverters in reverse!) with 60-80,000 amps on the DC side to manufacture silicon carbide abrasive. Here the purity of the copper cabling is paramount to reduce I2R losses and we can inspect these (also they are not in a moving boat!)
I assume that the high amperage capacity cables are as short as possible, however with SIMON have you consider a temperature sensor on or near the cables in case things work loose, oxidise etc, with the resultant increase in cable resistance and hence heat output? Also how are you cooling the inverter/cabling area - by increased air flow?
Just a couple of thoughts to back up the critical visual inspections
Rod
Eric: Good question... The interior space on the 64 and 68 is fairly close, in terms of square footage.
Last year, I did a spreadsheet comparing the two models, and the interior square footage of the 68 is 19% larger, there is 56% more space on decks, and 27% more space in the engine room/lazarette. It doesn't appear that way when you look at the plans, because Roberta and I made a concious decision to go for fewer, larger, rooms.
A fun comparison is our 62 to the 64. The 64 is nearly a third larger in interior space than the 62. Yet, our 62 slept at least nine people. We had four small staterooms on our 62.
Here's why we made the decision we made: When we first bought our 62, we thought it might be too large for us, and we'd need a captain and crew. We put in crews quarters, complete with their own head and kitchenette. The crews quarters were empty with one exception (the Atlantic crossing) throughout the eight years we owned the boat. The two guest staterooms were also empty 99% of the time.
In our case, Roberta and I like to cruise alone. We have decided that until we are in our 90s, we'll never have a captain or crew onboard. We'll run the boat ourselves. Once a year, her parents or mine might be on board. On rare occasions, we might have another couple on board -- but, the chances of our boat having more than us and another couple on board at the same time is very very slim.
Hence -- we decided to create larger, more open spaces. We won't be able to carry many people, but those who are on board will be very comfortable.
PS We chose the 68 over the 64 because of the large amount of exterior deck space. The 62 spoiled us with its enormous bow. Also: we found that the deck behind the pilot house became our primary living space. You have a great view, and in europe you are often med moored (backed up to) a dock, with hordes of people walking by six feet above the cockpit floor level. We like eating on the back deck "upstairs" more than having people look down on us sitting down in a "hole" (nearer to water level in the cockpit).
Comment by: Visitor (11/20/2006 2:49:10 PM) One question I have is I looked at the layout of the N64 vs N68.. It seems that N64 seem to have accomodation for 10 vs N68 for 7.Is the N64 seems to be more roomier than the N68? Thanks - Eric
Art: Once again this is NOT an area where I'm an expert. Roberta selected the appliances. The extent of my involvement was saying "I like the industrial kitchen look." I just uploaded the manuals for our stove to the manuals page (a 30" Viking Electric Range). I googled induction cooktops, and went to several pages. I was confused because all of the descriptions talk about gains in efficiency, but when it comes to looking at the watt consumption for the burners they seem to be the same or higher. For instance, the Wolf induction cooktop that I was looking at uses 2,500 watts, versus 2,000 for the Viking conventional cooktop. I'm not sure what I'm missing, but the induction cooktops don't seem to be lower wattage. Perhaps the heat is better?
Generally speaking, you will be running the generator while cooking. Assuming a 16kw generator, you can run four burners (2.5kw each) plus have 6kw left over. Actually, I doubt you would ever have four burners going at full-power under normal usage. The true current draw probably isn't that bad.
On my boat, I took the unusual step of having 14kw of inverter capacity. For "quick" cooking, like frying an egg in the morning, I'll just use the inverter. If it's a full meal, and we'll be cooking for an hour, or have the oven running, I'll fire the generator. My focus with the huge inverter capacity was on the short burts of huge amounts of power, where I didn't really want to power on a generator for 5 minutes (often because I didn't want to wake sleeping guests).
One note of caution on going with huge inverter capacity: 14kw of inverter output corresponds to 600 AMPS of 24v input. That's a lot of current flowing, and a potential fire hazard. You need huge cables, and solid connections. Mickey has already warned me that I should do regular visual inspections of these electrical connections.
Ken Thanks for the help. Have you considered a induction cooktop? According to CEG Electric Glass Company, a producer of induction cooktops, "power savings of 40-70% are realistically achievable in comparison to conventional cooktops? I have to keep Arild happy.
I went to the site for Seaforth, and saw the plans for the Tradition 58'. It looks VERY roomy for a 58. I'm trying to figure how they packed so much in.
I'll write to Mickey to see if he wants to contact you. He is in overload mode, and picky about taking over new projects. I don't presume to know what Mickey is thinking, but I doubt he would want to get involved in working with a boat which is competitive to Nordhavn. But, it never hurts to ask.
Our 62 was based in the Med (I had a slip just outside Monaco for four years). We did a lot of med mooring, although to be completely honest, Roberta and I were very nervous about going into strange ports. If there was any doubt at all, we anchored out. I'm hoping with this new boat, we won't be such wimps. As you know, the wind can make Med mooring quite interesting. We've watched a lot of boats bang into adjacent boats trying to get into slips. I should have gotten a wireless system for controlling the boat, but was nervous about them. It just didn't seem right to trust the boat to a wireless connection. If anything went wrong, things could get ugly fast. Probably they have thought this out, and I should have gone that route. I think I would if I had the decision to make over again.
With respect to the Passarelle: At the time we were looking for a passarelle, the Benazoni that we chose used the least amount of space. Ours will be the first Nordhavn ever to ship from the factory with a passarelle. There really wasn't a great place to put a passarelle, so we had to pick a model that used the minimum possible space in the lazarette. We added a passarelle to our 62, which was also a Benezoni. It was selected by a shipyard in Antibes, and worked great. I don't know Opacmare, so I don't know how they compare.
As to cooking, and sizing your battery bank -- you need to ask Arlild this question. This is an area I'm not particularly strong at. I did some math, which could be completely wrong. But, here's the math I did: A single electric burner will consume about 2kw, at 240 volts. If my math is right, that is around 8 amps, at 240 volts. Assuming your battery bank is 24v, you need to multiply by 10, to get 80 amps. Now, to give you a point of comparison, my battery bank holds 1,530 24 volt amp hours. So, I could run a single electric burner for something like 14 hours. That said, if I were going to cook for more than 20 or 30 mins, I'd probably start a generator. The electric stove will be a big drain on the battery bank, but it's not as bad as one might think.
As to the barbecue - we decided originally that we want no propane (or butane) on the boat, then later decided that we prefer cooking on gas to electric. So.. we are putting a gas barbecue on the back deck, and I'm taking the attitude that we'll use it if we have propane, but that if it's not easy to refill the bottles, we'll cook with electric. I've had bad luck in different parts of the world having the right adapters to refill tanks - so I like the idea of having electric cooking, with a propane barbecue for when we want to cook on gas. This gives the added safety advantage of not having propane inside the boat.
What stage are you at in construction? I look forward to following your progress!
-Ken W
Ken great website especially for someone like myself who is in the process of building a 58 footer with a new yard. Your level of detail is going to ensure a successful build. I am trying to encourage the same level of detail of my project manager at Seaforth Marine Group.
Your last threads have been with my electric engineer Arild Jensen. I am trying, with basically the same equipment, to achieve the same thing. Shore power convertor, chilled water system, all electric boat, monitoring system, etc.
It is interesting that I voice mailed and emailed Mikey Smith to see if he could act as my independent electrical engineer consultant. To date he has not returned my call. Do you have a way to get a hold of him.
I am so encouraged that what you are doing is exaclty what I am trying to do, money permittting. Only one thing, since I'll be cruising primarily out of europe I need to do a lot of med mooring, so I need to be where I can be most usefull to my wife in catching/throwing lines, etc. That is why I am considering Yacht Controller, or Docking Master, wireless controllers for engine, thrusters, windlass. What is your opinion of this system. The folks I have talked to love it.
My passarelle will be done by Opacamare. Why did you go with Benazoni ? so many questions. One last question, not counting a/c how many amps did you feel would be needed to keep things running smoothly. What is your amp figure for cooktop on, then with BBQ on? By the way which BBQ are you going with. Right now we are doing an Electric Chef 24" with rotisserie. Thanks again for showing the light and the way.
Art Hedlund 603-498-9898
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